‘No difference between CPM, Congress and BJP. All are communal’
C Ravichandran is often described as an author, scientific thinker, atheist, public speaker, RSS sympathiser, and Hindutva proponent. But, Ravichandran would insist that the last two descriptions are absolutely wrong. It was his book ‘Nasthikanaya Daivam’ that shot him into the limelight, and he now has attained almost a cult status, especially among the youth. He shares his views on faith, politics, and science during an interaction.
Excerpts:
The concept of atheism has evolved in the past two decades. There are rationalists and agnostics… Where do you stand?
Atheists do not believe in the concept of God because of the lack of evidence. Even if there is sufficient evidence, there is no need to believe; it becomes a fact. Agnostic means to be unsure of the existence of god or supernatural powers. I am an atheist.
When did you come out of the conditioned belief system?
Chronologically speaking, I used to pray till 5th grade. I studied in a Christian residential school. I even used to believe in superstitions like if you see two mynahs together it would bring good luck. Coming out of the belief system was a slow and gradual process. It didn’t happen overnight. When I reached 6th grade, I stopped praying, and in 9th grade, I even stopped attending religious festivals. Though I put an end to everything related to religion and belief, there was a phase where I thought that though there was no God, there could be a force or at least a vibration. I came out of that phase in my early 20s and entered into complete liberation. Now it’s all peace and happiness.
Have you faced any pressure from your family to pray or go to the temple, etc.?
My father was a communist and my mother was a believer. Her only condition was I should light the lamp. But after a point, she stopped pressurising for that also. In my house, I had the liberty to follow what I believed in. Similarly, we haven’t enforced what we stand for on our kids. My father became an atheist after reading the books I wrote.
Atheism in Kerala is often linked to the ‘Yukthivadi Sangham'. Could you give us some insight?
The Yukthivadi movement has its roots in Sahodaran Ayyappan's ‘Yukthivadi’ magazine. I am not, in any way, connected to the Yukthivadi movement, and I do not call myself a rationalist in the Kerala context. The Yukthivadi movement in Kerala had three fundamental issues — religious bias, caste class consciousness and servility to the (Communist) party.
Early rationalists believed that it is best for people to convert themselves to Islam. There was even a book titled ‘Ezhavarkku Nallathu Islam’. Back then, they glorified Islam, citing flaws in Hinduism. Similarly, rationalists asserted that caste should be “asked for, talked about, and thought about.” I am okay with the first two, but the insistence on “thinking” about caste seemed atrocious and quite abominable.
Many face caste discrimination even today. How can you tell them to forget caste?
Caste is a reality, I accept. But how we annihilate caste is what matters. For instance, a person who travels abroad is likely to forget caste; the idea gets wiped off his mind. To forget about caste is a positive thing. It is also possible to keep it alive in the minds of people. To keep reminding people about their roots and the unfair past only creates more darkness in their minds.
But is it that easy to wish away caste?
Look at how things are changing for the good. Here we are sitting together at a table and interacting without knowing anybody’s caste. A discussion like this would, perhaps, have been impossible many decades ago. We should encourage the things that help people forget caste. Let the wounds heal. Why keep scratching the scabs?
Are you saying things are getting better?
Certainly. There is a tendency to rue that the past was always good and now we are living in a bad era. The truth is that we never had a better past. We are all delusional about a glorified past that we never had in reality. During the period between 1911 and 1920, a census was conducted in Travancore and it was found that the average lifespan of a person was 25 years. Now we have a lifespan of 75 years. Yet, we say that people in the past were healthier.
So, you are convinced that atheism is the right way of life?
Well, one can live as a believer too. You can live by believing in lucky colours, buy just white shirts if that's what you want. You don't hurt anyone. A scientist can send a rocket to space if every parameter is met. You can launch the rocket after praying at Tirupati too. But in both instances, the parameters have to be correct. Science is atheistic. But the believer has to do an extra job.
The basis of atheism is scientific knowledge. There are many complexities in the universe that science cannot explain...
If science doesn't know something, it doesn't mean any other knowledge system is correct. If we cannot explain something scientifically, that only means our knowledge hasn't reached that level. We have to find answers. Instead, we shouldn't look at a pit nearby and jump into it, saying it is 1,400 years old or 5,000 years old.
Science is the path of inquiry. It goes from right to better right. Many say their books (religious texts) have all these experiments and results. But, you can’t conduct those experiments by opening those books. If so, priests, mullahs, and poojaris should have been at the forefront of conducting experiments. Actually, they are intellectually handicapped.
Your statement that Kerala should fear political Islam more than RSS created a controversy...
I never said that Kerala should be fearful of political Islam. I only stated a fact that Kerala is more afraid of political Islam than anything else. India’s major political threat is from the Sangh Parivar politics but Kerala has a political grammar different from that of India. Here, Sangh Parivar forces have no relevance. Kerala's social dynamics are aligned more with CPM and Congress. Malayalis will never vote for a party that doesn’t stand a winning chance.
Why do you say that people are scared of political Islam?
Take for example the recent discussion on the dish ‘Kuzhimanthi’. Many people who made comments on the topic were forced to retract their position. Why did they have to plead forgiveness? They are not the sort of people who usually cave in easily. But they had to. Why? I will give you another example.
When a woman from Kerala died in a missile attack by Hamas in Israel, Kerala chief minister, opposition leader, and other political leaders condemned the incident as an attack by terrorists on social media. But, suddenly they corrected their statements. If a common man retracts, we can understand that he or she is doing it out of fear. But, here the state's chief minister and opposition leader were forced to retract.
What do you think of BJP?
The BJP's politics is not that of Savarkar. From what I understood of Savarkar, he was against cow politics. Whereas, cow politics is the number one trump card for BJP. If the issues related to Ram Janmabhoomi or Sabarimala had arisen during his time, he would have opposed the first one and supported the second (entry of women to Sabarimala).
Have heard you saying that BJP, Congress, and the Left are all the same… Will you explain?
I don't see any difference between them. All are communal. The only difference is that BJP does it openly. The left party (CPM) and Congress want Muslim votes. At the same time, they want Hindu and Christian votes. They do everything possible to get these votes. They will celebrate Sree Krishna Jayanthi and help people carry the cross to Malayattoor Church.
BJP aims to establish a Hindu nation while both Congress and CPM vouch for secularism… How can you say that they are all the same?
I think the question is wrong. BJP, as per its manifesto and constitution, is a secular party.
Maybe in words, but not in action...
If we look at the actions of all parties, there will be a lot to pinpoint. By definition, BJP's core ideology is integral humanism, drafted by Deendayal Upadhyaya. If you ask what integral humanism is based on, it is purely Gandhism — Swadeshi, Sarvodaya, Swaraj. BJP’s and Gandhiji's ideologies are very similar to each other. The only difference is the appeasement of Muslims.
You have said that there is no need to consider Muslims as a minority in India.
The Muslim population in India is 20 crore. Under the political minority concept, Muslims cannot be considered a minority in India because 20 crore is a huge number. Moreover, Muslims were the rulers of India. Only Parsis, Buddhists or Jains, or even Christianity, can be called minorities. Muslims are not like the Jews in Germany who were only 0.75% of the population. Here in India, they compare Muslims with Jews. There is no comparison.
Your detractors call you a Sanghi. Are you one?
Being called a Sanghi is common in Kerala. With utmost confidence, I claim that I have written the maximum number of books against the Sangh Parivar. I don't think any Sanghi would do that. I recently took up the issue of imposing the Hindi language forcefully. I have written and spoken a lot against cow politics, which several so-called 'anti-Sanghi' groups still share on social media. But I don't speak or write about how camera-conscious Narendra Modi is. I'll be called an anti-Sanghi only if I write or speak on such matters. I don't have time for that. I protest against ideas, not people.
You supported the CAA and Farm Bill. That could be a reason…
I have also openly supported the projects that have been proposed by the LDF government, such as K-Rail, and I support its decision on the Vizhinjam project. But nobody calls me a Leftist… (laughs).
What is your point in favour of CAA?
If CAA is implemented, a lot of people who had been living in the country as aliens will get an identity and a sense of belonging. We are giving these refugees citizenship on humanitarian grounds. However, CPM, Congress and other parties played on the fear of Muslims by spreading a falsehood that CAA was being brought in to throw them out.
But there was a filter against Muslims...
CAA is not something that takes away anybody's citizenship. It is one that gives it. But, it has been mixed up with the National Register of Indian Citizens (NRIC) which was brought in Assam. These two are completely different. The government should remove the Muslim filter before implementing it since it is against the secular fabric of our country.
What do you think of the Sabarimala issue?
I have a different take on it. Everyone must have the equal right to believe in or follow a superstition. If a man can consume poison, women must also have the right to do so. It is an issue of gender equality.
Earlier, you said all three parties are the same. But, it was CPM that took a stance supporting the judgment allowing women’s entry.
When it comes to taking a stance and then changing it, there is no difference between RSS and CPM. Both first stood for the entry of women but later changed their tune.
So you don’t think CPM is progressive?
No. In Kerala, the number one party that claims to be a Hindu party or a party of Hindus is the CPM. The difference between a Hindu leader in CPM and one in BJP is zero or near zero. The only difference is the flag they carry.
How about the Left parties’ contributions in making Kerala stand out from the rest?
In the case of literacy or health, Kerala is at the top. But if we analyse the status of education and health in Travancore before independence, we can see that it was very advanced. If you look at the economic side, you can see that there is nothing here. Nobody is investing here. We are going in the wrong direction. All this is because of communism. Religious superstition affects only that particular community. But economic superstition affects everyone.
What, according to you, is the political future of India?
In my opinion, any politics without involving Muslims has no future. It will only be friction-ridden. It will not have a positive result… It is unethical and not humanistic. The only answer is inclusive politics. In this era of globalisation, India will not be able to go forward by discriminating against Muslims or Christians — the two religions that enjoy international clout. Why can’t BJP have an electoral alliance with Muslims?
BJP doesn't need Muslims to rule...
BJP will have to do that. Then only the country will be able to go forward.
You are also called “anti-Muslim”...
See, what would you need to give a person an anti-Muslim tag? All one needs is to open their mouth. The entire thing cropped up after I used the word “they” in one of my speeches. The word was misconstrued and I got painted as an anti-Muslim.
You say all religions are bad, and Islam is particularly bad… How can you justify that?
Both Hinduism and Christianity have undergone reformation over years. They have been able to reform but that has not happened in Islam. They say that only a person who believes in Islam can criticise it. How is that fair?
Is being spiritual better than being religious?
A spiritual person is just like a normal believer except that he wants to stake a better claim. Both are the same.
Society we live in is witnessing an increase in cases of depression and other psychological issues. If bhakti is an outlet for relief, why should we villainise it?
Qualitatively speaking, bhakti is not a good emotion. There are 3 Bs in bhakti — beg, bribe, and brag. You are begging in front of God, and it’s not a good quality. The second element is bribing, you give offerings to please God. Bragging is praising God and considering God to be a force that knows everything. Instead of going behind these, it’s far better to believe in your own skills, not hurt anyone, and live in confidence. You can add one more B to that. It’s Bali (sacrifice) — which is the ultimate negation of oneself. Bhakti is distressing most of the time.