Professor M Kunjaman is one of the most organic intellectuals Kerala has produced. His personal experiences of caste oppression have only made him more profound. He talks to TNIE about the failure of Congress and the Left in understanding the Dalit question, the class-caste equation of poverty, and also about his hopes of Indian society progressing to become a casteless one. Excerpts:
You have always been a dissenting voice — from your childhood to till date. Is it because of your life situations or are there any other reasons?
It’s mostly due to my life situations... There was severe poverty and caste oppression. There were people who treated us as animals. But I don’t feel any hatred towards them because they were mere products of that age. One can call my dissent a legacy of my life.
You have written about a feudal lord who let loose the dog after you were given kanji in the courtyard...
It was a ferocious dog... I fought with that dog for food. I felt bad for him and me. I felt he was a fellow sufferer (chuckles).
Have heard you saying that fear, inferiority complex, and lack of confidence instilled by those experiences have not left you yet...
Yes. I feel inferior due to those experiences even now. But there have been some good things also. Those experiences have stopped me from doing anything wrong or bad to other people. Whatever has happened in my life has been a bonus... no disappointments.
You don’t have any good childhood memories?
Even Onam was not a fond memory because people from my caste had to go to rich people’s houses and sing songs praising them on the day of Uthradam. I used to feel very disturbed as those people had no good qualities worth praising. But we did that as we would get food on those days.
People treated you badly even after you became well known?
While I was a professor at TISS, I got a call from Kiran Bedi’s office. The caller asked me to call Ms Bedi. Then I told that person that if she wants to talk to me, she should call me. That call never came. There have been totally opposite experiences too. Once I got a call from Brinda Karat seeking a time to meet me. I was quite impressed and then, I conveyed that I will go to her if she wants to meet me.
You have said poverty is secular...
There was severe poverty in those days. There is no shortage of food now thanks to the food security measures initiated by our government. The absence of hunger has led to higher aspiration levels across the social spectrum. Life becomes lively when there are aspirations. Mobile phones are an empowering instrument.
How have the manifestations of caste changed?
Brahminical Hinduism is disappearing from India. Narendra Modi is responsible for that. It does not mean Brahminism is disappearing. But the present Brahminism is without Brahmins. There are Dalit Brahmins, OBC Brahmins... All communities want a share in power now. It is impossible to do politics in today’s India by stressing caste domination. That has become a thing of the past.
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Will you please explain it?
They introduced “Subaltern Hinduism” in a serious manner. They really studied and worked hard to make inroads into the caste system — something which the Communists and Congress failed to do.
You said Brahminical Hinduism is disappearing. But where will you place RSS in this context?
I have not studied RSS seriously. As far as I know, RSS is a cultural organisation. This type of cultural organisation is there in the Muslim community... in the Dalit community.
You said that Communists failed to understand the realities of the caste system...
Yes. They failed. They talked about land reforms while Ambedkar talked about land distribution. It was not because EMS did not understand this but because he could not go beyond the concept of class.
How about Congress?
They too failed miserably in that. They could not tolerate a person like Ambedkar. Similarly, they both voted against Droupadi Murmu in the presidential election. They opposed her not because she was a BJP candidate. The person whom they supported was once a BJP minister. Their opposition was personal. That shows their lack of political insight.
You said the Left failed to understand caste. If it had, do you think Left’s prospects would have been better?
Yes, I think so. Left would have grown wider.
You said you have talked to EMS about this. What was his response?
I have asked EMS that question several times. He never gave a straight reply to that. Many Communist leaders retain caste surnames. They don’t ask themselves that question and they don’t like others asking that question.
How do you assess Congress’ understanding of caste?
The earlier Congress leaders were very secular. But now we don’t have such leaders. Rahul Gandhi does have an all-India perspective and he is secular. But, there are not many leaders with a national perspective now.
How do you look at Shashi Tharoor as a national leader?
He dug his own grave by positioning himself as unique. I never thought that he would go on a Pala-Perunna-Panakkad trip. That exposed him. Tharoor, like EMS, is a scholar among politicians and a politician among scholars. No academician would use his references.
How do you look at the way India’s politics is progressing?
India’s electoral democracy does have a political future. But now it has become a democracy sans freedom. I don’t feel freedom anywhere now. One has to look left and right before speaking.
You have said that Kerala’s Left is going the West Bengal way. Why do you think so?
Now there is no Left as such. Now LDF is a coalition that takes occasional glances towards the Left while moving towards the Right. There is no purity or originality. They are practising politics like any other front.
So, you say LDF will wither away the way Left Front did in Bengal?
Yes. Because leaders with Left thinking are not there. Mamata Banerjee is implementing exactly what Jyoti Basu implemented. She is doing it in a very clever way.
If that’s the case, how would you explain the disappearance of the Left from Tripura? Manik Sarkar was a CM who was “pure Communist”, someone who would tick all the boxes of moral codes and Communist values...
We know about Tripura from what we have read. We don’t know the ground realities.
But is it right to judge the Left parties or leaders using the yardsticks of the 60s and 70s? The world has changed, its politics have changed, and society’s aspirations have changed...
Your point is correct... But what does it mean if leaders change as per circumstances? A leader should be able to influence circumstances like Gandhi. Certain things should not change. It’s like the relationship between mother and child. Some things must be constant.
You have interacted closely with EMS. How was your equation?
I used to criticise him a lot. Once he told me, criticism is very important. Marxism grows through criticisms. “You should criticise me too. I am not a God to be not criticised,” he told me. Those were the words of a real Communist. I noted those lines in my diary immediately. Ever since I have considered those lines as a guiding principle in my life.
How do you assess the ruling LDF?
Politics does not matter in a coalition. What matters only is election strategy. It is an arrangement. There is none like EMS in the current party. Zealots make an organisation weak while criticisms make it stronger. Communists are their own grave diggers now.
As an economist, how do you assess the Kerala model of development?
The “Kerala model” was not created out of any blueprint. It was not a contribution of any political party or leader. It evolved socially due to historical reasons. It is an exclusion model. Those who were historically marginalised continued to be marginalised. At the same time, the Left parties succeeded in developing an inclusive welfare model which is very secular. It is this inclusive welfare model of the Left governments that is responsible for sustaining Kerala. The way workers from other states have been imbibed into our system is because of this inclusiveness. CM Pinarayi Vijayan’s articulation of the term ‘athithi thozhilalikal’ (guest workers) was an excellent one. But the Left government is not doing anything to distribute the land to the landless.
How has neoliberalism impacted society as a whole?
It has impacted our language and lingo. For example, Communists no longer talk about exploitation or surplus value. They don’t use the term bourgeois, instead, they say investor. That is an interesting change. I am not making any judgement here.
There is a belief that neoliberalism has empowered the Dalits like nothing else. How far is it true?
Capitalism is more inclusive as it wants everyone to have more money so that everyone has purchasing power. Poverty is not in their interest. But politicians want poor people so that they can continue to speak about the poor.
You have written that for a Dalit to sit on the CM chair, he has to be born as a bug...
(Chuckles) Yes, it is very difficult for political parties to accept a Dalit, even if he is very much eligible, for the top post. Even now, a Dalit is mandated to contest only from reserved constituencies. Sadly, that is the case even in Communist parties.
Ambedkarite parties like the Republican Party or BSP have got reduced to reservation politics. How do you look at them?
That is because they understood Ambedkar wrongly. They equated Ambedkar with reservation and social justice. They think only about caste and reservation. The leaders have become career politicians. They fell for the ruling class’s ploy of limiting everything to the reservation. All they wanted was reservation, they are not bothered about whether the right people are ruling.
Why do Dalit movements for land rights fail... whether it was that of Laha Gopalan or C K Janu?
Communists defeated the struggle for land distribution led by Laha Gopalan using state power and cadre power. Similarly, the UDF government in 2003 used state power and tortured the tribals who asked for land. So it’s clear that all fronts in power have a tacit understanding in protecting class interests. The real reason for Congress and Left opposing Murmu’s presidential candidature was because they feared she may be against their class interests as she, as a Governor, had refused to sign two Bills that were against the interest of Adivasis.
There have been some attempts at Dalit-Muslim unity. What is your take on them?
I don’t think that is the solution to the problems. Primarily because they can’t join hands genuinely because their interests are different. There is nothing common between them. Muslims don’t think of Dalit issues as their own. They don’t really give any consideration to Dalits.
Dalits are being used by Hindutva forces across the country to advance their interests...
It is not just Hindutva forces alone that use Dalits. The poor have always been used by the powerful throughout our political history. Who is not a fascist? There may be small differences but everybody in power becomes a fascist.
How do you look at the situation of Dalits in the country?
If you look at it, you can see that all victims are from the same community. whether it is Madhu or Valayar Amma. It will be like that only... The poor have never got justice anywhere in the world; will never get it either. Poor will get justice only if they come out of poverty. The reality is that those who want change do not have the power to bring in change while those who can bring in change do not want change.
How do you look at the future of the caste system in the country? Do you foresee India without a caste system?
Yes. I believe we are moving towards a casteless society. That is what will emerge ultimately when there is equal redistribution of wealth. The number of
people who think beyond caste is increasing. That is indeed a silver lining.
But do you think such redistribution will happen?
That is indeed a million-dollar question.