‘If Hinduism is Talibanised, world would be destroyed’: Sri M
You are not a conventional spiritual leader. You are married, have conducted padayatra from Kanyakumari to Kashmir, and have been a mediator when political killings happened. What makes you different from other spiritual leaders?
What you said is one of the factors that makes me distinct (smiles). But there’s a slight correction to saying that I’m not seen as a conventional spiritual person. I have a parampara. My guru was from Nath Sampradaya (Gorakhnath). In Nath Sampradaya, there are married and unmarried persons. My guru asked me to lead a normal life.
Who is Sri M in reality? A spiritual leader, mystic or a social activist?
If you ask that in depth, there is no Sri M, there is only the soul. My birth name was Mumtaz Ali Khan. The first letter starts with M. When I was given deeksha in Nath Sampradaya, a Nath name was needed. So I was called Madhukar Nath. He (guru) used to call me Madhu. That also starts with M. But what makes me happy is that the M in Sri M means manushyan or manav (human being). I am a human being and I am free of all other definitions. Sri was prefixed by someone. Even if you call me M, I’m happy. If I’m addressed as Mr M, I’ll be the boss of James Bond (laughs out).
In your autobiography, it is said that you undertook a journey at the age of 19. Why did you have to travel to the Himalayas to seek your spiritual purpose?
At the age of nine, my guru placed his hands over my head. It was after that episode that spirituality manifested in me and changed my life. Till the age of 19, I was in Thiruvananthapuram and met a lot of spiritual leaders. But I did not think of accepting any of them as my guru. So, after hearing about gurus and yogis in the Himalayas, I was attracted to go there. I left without informing anyone. I had to face a lot of difficulties. Finally, I found Babaji at Vyasa guha. I was with him for three and a half years.
Was the journey to meet your guru predestined?
No. I don’t encourage the word predestined as it denotes a fatalistic life. There is a blueprint that is predestined. But man has a brain and freedom to work within that blueprint. If there is a blueprint for 10 persons to go towards spirituality, only one person may go. It’s our decision. If not, what’s the use of the brain if everything is predestined?
So, isn’t there destiny?
Destiny means what you make of your life. My statement can render astrologers jobless. But this is my belief.
People say Guru Babaji is still there. Is that true?
We call him Sri Guru Babaji in our parampara and not mahavatar. Yes, I believe so. In our parampara we don’t consider him a human being. Any human should die once born. This is a being who was not born from the womb of a mother. He is actually a mayaroopam in our language, a body created for a specific functionality. Whenever he feels the function is complete, he would dissolve it. So he exists even now.
There have been many godmen around us. Is Sri M one of them?
There will be attempts to make me one but I won’t allow it as there is no need for it (laughs out).
What makes you different from them?
Do I look like a godman? There are two dangers associated with godmen. One, the personality itself will be full of ego and will start thinking that whatever one says is right. Secondly, one’s personality becomes more important than one’s teachings. This is equally dangerous. I have told people that it is not me but what I say that is important.
Names like Sri M, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar... aren’t all these a part of making the person godmen?
Nobody is willing to call me M. Sri is actually a short form for Sriman (Mr). It was a royal family in Delhi that first used to call me Mr M. Their niece suggested calling me Sri M and the name stuck. Now it is very useful as it can be used as a pen-name (smiles).
Most spiritual leaders relinquish their ties with families but you maintain family relations. How is that possible?
Very difficult (laughs out). It’s a tightrope walk. To maintain a family along with spirituality is very difficult. I was ready to take up sanyasa. But Babaji advised against it. He asked me to get married and experience problems faced by commoners. In my opinion, marriage has the capacity to cut the ego. If one moves to sanyasa without experiencing grihastha, he may later become distracted by some attractions. It is difficult to handle it unless you are exceptional.
You were born in a traditional Muslim family. What attracted you to Hinduism?
Rebirth is a theory for many but an experience for me. My life changed when Babaji placed his hand over my head. He didn’t ask me to change. But when I introspected, I liked ancient Hinduism which provides for questioning, probing and accepting. In Upanishads, you can see dialogues. Nobody asks you to believe in something. There is another stream which asks you to believe only in one god. Suppose if I cannot believe it, there is no answer for it. Also, we may feel their arguments are contradictory. Then I thought there should be something else. And I started meeting swamis in the area. I also read spiritual books from the public library. I got attracted to this stream (Hinduism) because, in it, we learn through dialogues. But I haven’t changed my name.
Is your name still Mumtaz Khan?
Yes. I didn’t feel the need to change it.
Are you saying that you were attracted by the freedom in the Hindu religion?
Yes. But that is my fear as well. If Hinduism is Talibanised, the world would be destroyed. There is a possibility for that.
How do you view casteism? Isn’t casteism the big bane of Hinduism?
Yes. Casteism developed much later in Hinduism. Who authored Brahmasutra and Mahabharata? It was Veda Vyasa, whose mother was a fisherwoman. One should be judged by his life not by birth. Today, there are many Brahmins whose lifestyle is worse than anyone else (smiles).
But Mahabharata is full of caste references…
Yes, there are caste references in the Mahabharata, but it was the social norm at the time. However, it is no longer necessary. When people achieve success in a certain field, they often try to pass it on to the next generation, which can lead to a system resembling caste. This happens in many areas, even business. Brahmins were universally respected. So they tried to perpetuate their position, making it hereditary instead of focusing on qualities. The varnashrama system, however, was originally based on qualities.
Even when you say this, a Dalit cannot be a priest in Sabarimala...
It’s a difficult issue to address, and ideally, the criteria should be based on quality, not birth. I don’t deny the role of genetic factors, but I believe that I may be more qualified than some Brahmins despite being outside the traditional hierarchy.
Do you foresee a possibility of an India without caste?
If the caste system ever ceases to exist in India, then it will become a true ‘Hindu Rashtra’. When I talk about Hindu, don’t think of it as a political statement about a ‘Hindu Rashtra’. It’s about understanding the essence of Hindu teachings. My definition of Hindu is a Sanatani definition.
Your arguments seem contradictory when you say that some people are qualified for something...
There’s no contradiction. People qualify themselves by practising and learning at home. They know the requirements and what needs to be done. It’s difficult to train someone from outside the system because they haven’t been exposed to it from a young age.
You once said Marxist ideology would have been different had Karl Marx read the Upanishads. What exactly did you mean?
Marx’s Das Kapital has no spiritual aspect, it is strictly economic. Had Marx read the Upanishads, there would have been a spiritual element in his philosophy. The dialectical aspect is fine, but it should not be reduced to materialism alone.
How do you see the equation of Marxist leaders and yoga?
Some time ago, Marxist leaders approached me with a request to teach their cadre yoga. But they didn’t want to associate with orthodox centres. Yoga, as a practice, can be done even without being a believer. I agreed to teach them. They named the approach Chethana Yogam, and some of the cadre started practising it. About 1,000 volunteers even demonstrated their practice at an event in Kannur.
What’s the difference between Communist yoga and normal yoga?
No difference (laughs). The probable difference is they wouldn’t say any chants of Ganesha or other deities before the commencement of the yoga. They would just do it. Some practices require the chant of om. They asked me if it was necessary. I told them if it’s difficult to chant om, they need to just say ooooo instead (laughs out). There are many who do it.
Has CM Pinarayi Vijayan shown interest in learning yoga?
I can’t comment on that (smiles).
Swami Vivekananda called Hinduism the mother of all religions. From what you say, Hinduism has different streams of thought. How much of a common ground or source do you feel all religions have? Islam speaks about formless God and Hinduism also has nirakara sankalpa?
There is a correction. The Allah that Islam speaks of and the Parabrahma in Vedanta are not one and the same. There is a conceptual difference. In my opinion, Swami Vivekananda must have used the word ‘religion’ as a general term, and not as a specific term. Second, Swamiji appreciated all schools of thought. Jains may or may not admit they are Hindus but they are also part of the whole structure. Buddhism may seem different, but basically, it is the same stream. These things are all rooted in ancient wisdom or teachings.
Why do you say Allah is different?
Because the concept is different. I have studied both. Allah is formless (nirakara) but is not without attributes (nirguna). Formless Allah gets angry and all. It is contradictory, but that is the concept. It is not Advaita although people think Allah is the only God, which means it is Advaitic. Allah is defined as a concept which is the only truth and nothing else is true. But Advaita is a concept which says everything is rooted in the same truth.
In Advaita, according to Adi Shankara, the Supreme Brahman is the only truth. That truth you cannot contact, you cannot pray to it, you cannot worship it, and it does not have any attributes (nirguna). It has no personal qualities... nothing you can do to it. When you quieten your mind totally, when all ripples of thought cease fully, what remains is the Brahman. That concept and the concept of Allah is very different.
In the science vs spirituality debate, science is logic and spirituality is faith. How can a person with a scientific mind be spiritual?
Because spirituality is not non-scientific, and religion may appear to be based on faith. There are many things that the ordinary brain, in its present capacity, can explore. The most intelligent person quickly realises the limitations of so-called ordinary thinking. There are other modes of thoughts and experiences that are outside the systemic thoughts and experiences we have built up. The most intelligent person should understand the limitations of psuedoscientific thought and then go beyond it.
Can spirituality and science go together?
It should go together. There was a time it was moving together, and that has to come back.. And we need to be careful about pseudoscience.
You have spoken about a particular verse in your book and also about naga loka. You claim to have met the naga. How does this relate to science?
The only reason is science too has a prejudice. They are not ready to accept something which is beyond what they have defined as science. The definition of science has to be changed, just as our understanding of humanity, religion and spirituality must change with time.
Some say your autobiography reads like a fantasy novel…
Yes, I tell kids that if they enjoy reading Harry Potter, they should read my book too (laughs out). Sometimes, truth is easier to understand through fiction because our minds struggle to conceive such possibilities otherwise. But let’s keep an open mind. Unlike many sadhus who use intoxicants like ganja or ayahuasca, I don’t consume any narcotics or alcohol. Everything I have seen and experienced is real for me, at least. Reality can be subjective. What is real for one person may not be real for another.
You were born into a Muslim family but later followed a Hindu spiritual path. How do Islamic religious organisations perceive you?
They are generally very angry with me. However, as I don’t actively challenge them, they leave me alone. But they cannot accept my choices. In Shariah Islam, changing one’s faith is considered blasphemy and is punishable by death. I have received threats, but I don’t care.
You were among those who played a key role in restoring peace in Kannur. How did that happen?
When our padayatra was passing through Malappuram and Kannur, I was warned. But I decided to walk. On my right side were RSS workers, and on my left, CPM workers. That may have been a first in the history of Kerala. After the padayatra, I decided to make an attempt to bring peace. When I met some leaders, I knew that everybody was interested in stopping violence. I met the top brass in RSS in Delhi. On the Left party’s side, the onus was on the district secretary, P Jayarajan. I met him. We held three meetings in Kannur with the top leaders of CPM and RSS, including Pinarayi Vijayan, Kodiyeri Balakrishnan and Gopalan Kutty. We settled the issue and held a peace walk through Kannur, with all of them participating.
The RSS is celebrating its 100th year of its formation. Your views on RSS...
Many people harbour a lot of misunderstanding about RSS. Take the instance of the recent discussions around Gyanvapi Masjid (in Varanasi). What did RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat say? He said there is no need to excavate everywhere (under each mosque) to look for Shiva Linga. This is a message. All said and done, RSS is hundred percent nationalist. For them, the country is everything. If it is being threatened politically, physically or culturally, they object. It may be right or wrong, but they object. That’s my experience.
Is that the reason you face opposition from Muslim fundamentalist groups?
It could be. If there is one text, one scripture and one teacher, then there are chances of more such instances. But if we take this side (Hinduism), it offers variety. It isn’t based on just ‘one’. Having ‘one’ has its advantages, but there are disadvantages too. People who do namaz five times a day will do so irrespective of whether it’s a railway station or a bus stand. Their strength is that millions of people do namaz facing one direction at the same time. Will our people (Hindus) openly chant a gayatri mantra or sandhya vandanam? Our strength (that of Hinduism) is that we are ready to acknowledge that we need not always head in one direction. I’m not saying that either of these needs to change. There’s something in between these two. We need to arrive at a consensus.
You have stated that two women have majorly influenced your life — your mother and your wife. Can you elaborate?
I’ve only one regret in my life — my mother suffered a lot when I wandered around. Since there was no communication for three and a half years, they didn’t even know whether I was alive. So, I still have a connection with my mother through my mind. My wife is a simple person.
There’s a theory that whatever we experience in this life is because of our karma in past lives. What’s your take?
Yes. I cannot think about Vedanta without considering the influences from my past lives.
So, according to you, are there rebirths?
Hundred percent! It’s my experience. For me, it’s not a theory though it cannot be proven (smiles).
What’s the ultimate truth?
It’s very difficult to define the ultimate truth. In my opinion, it is to discover the divinity in you. In the core of our being, there’s divinity. Such a spark is present in all human beings. Spiritual life is to discover that spark. The aim is to discover your true self, who you actually are!