Sometime back you said there will be an early poll in the State. This is the thought process of the ruling party here. My information was that after the Padampur bypoll, they have come to believe that this is the right time for an early election. This I came to know from common friends, as a lot of people are talking to us from that side as well.
So you mean to say that they (BJD) want the early Assembly poll even before Lok Sabha election?
This was my information from their side. I don’t know whether it is right or wrong. But one of their responsible persons told me that after Padampur they are little bit…(enthusiastic)
With the decline of Congress, there is a vast opposition space in Odisha. BJP, somehow, seems have lost two opportunities to capitalise on that.
This is not true. In 2014, we were a distant third. Till 2014, my party was also not an all-Odisha party. Due to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s personality, we could create an impact but couldn’t convert that into votes. But, in 2019 we translated that into votes and emerged as a major political party. We became the second-largest political party in the 2017 panchayat elections and also doubled our vote share in 2019, winning eight Parliamentary seats. The figure was just one in 2014.
The number of Assembly seats for the BJP also increased from 10 in 2014 to 23 in 2019.
Today BJP is the principal opposition party in the State. We have to fight and earn the faith and trust of Odia people in a larger way. They like Prime Minister Modi and have reposed their faith, but in democracy and elections we have to win majority of the seats. We have to work hard.
BJP has lost the 2019 momentum while going into the next Assembly elections. The rise has somewhat stalled.
I don’t think so.
In the last rural and urban polls, your results were not as good as 2017. Even in the bypolls also party’s performance was poor.
For me, except Brajarajnagar, we have done well in all bypolls as well as local body polls. But, from a political assessment point of view, yes the results were not like... (expectations).
Brajarajnagar was a disappointment for me personally because I represent that area in Parliament. My party has been a strong and formidable party in Brajarajnagar since two decades. In 1996 also, we had got substantial votes in that segment.
In the Padampur by-election also, we got around 80,000 votes. This is not a loss of momentum. Ruling party has its own advantage in any by-election or local body election. Factoring that point, with the very caveat, I am not satisfied. But, we lost the momentum is not a story.
There is talk within your party that you lost in Brajarajnagar and Padampur because of internal conflicts.
I don’t think so because you all know what is going on in Odisha politics today. At one end there is altogether a different ball game. There is no principle or ethics. The person who had been cornered on ethical grounds became the face of that party after a few months in the western part. With all these things, I don’t agree with it.
We have spent a lot of time in opposition. But today we have the faith of the countrymen in our leadership. I am a strong believer of democracy and I believe in political homework and political hard work, not management. As the saying goes ‘you can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.’
In neighbouring West Bengal we have seen the fall of the mighty CPM and the Left front. They were in power 10 years back. However, in the last elections, they lost their deposit in all the constituencies.
Biju babu had also lost elections from five constituencies in one go. So in democracy winning the election is not the reflection of a political journey. We are a movement, an ideological grouping. We are here for some cause. We will see Odisha at its peak under the leadership and guidance of Prime Minister Modi. That is our political ideology.
That’s evident. In Lok Sabha polls, people of the State are very much inclined towards Prime Minister Modi. But in the State, as you yourself have acknowledged, they are not voting for BJP.
I agree. This means I have to work hard. I have to go to 1 crore households. I had appealed to my partymen, ‘What’s your job? There are 400 days left. Prime Minister Modi has also said it. There are 1 crore households and we have to knock on every door.’
How do you envisage BJP in the next Odisha Assembly and Lok Sabha polls?
If we compare the elections of 2014 and 2019, we secured 21 per cent (pc) votes in Parliamentary seats and 18 pc in Assembly. However, we doubled the vote share and got 34 pc votes in Assembly seats, while in Parliamentary seats we went up to 38 pc - a straight 17 pc gain. In 2019, we won eight Parliamentary seats and lost three by a narrow margin.
Similarly, we lost another 27 seats in Assembly polls with less than 10,000 votes. We lost Kantabanji by just 130 votes, Rajgangpur by 80 votes and Parjang by 700 votes. My calculation was we could win at least 50 seats, but it is a democracy and we have to accept the results. However, this also indicates that we are already in the minds of the people.
Will your party project anyone as CM face in the next Assembly polls?
I personally feel it is not necessary. There are a lot of capable people in the party. So this is not necessary. We have two models. We never projected in Maharashtra, Haryana or in the 2017 elections in UP. I think Odisha is in a formative stage. It’s Modi.
Would you contest elections this time?
I have already requested the party to... I will contest this time.
Assembly or Lok Sabha?
Smiles…
What are your views on Rahul Gandhi’s Bharat Jodo Yatra?
For me, as an onlooker, he is doing it to hold on to his own base. As we know from the Congress friends and those who have come out of the party, there is a feeling in the Congress party that there is a total disconnect between Rahul Gandhi’s persona with reality.
Some of his typical advisers must have advised him that if he wants to stay relevant he has to do something. So in order to retain his hold, the shrinking hold in his party, he is doing this exercise. I feel that with all these exercises he may enrich himself with experience. But with the kind of behaviour, words and narrative he has developed in this process, I don’t see any substantial outcome from his Yatra.
So the Yatra won’t bring any electoral benefits for Congress?
We all have seen the results of the Gujarat election that took place during the Bharat Jodo Yatra. Even in Himachal Pradesh, where Congress came to power, they are not in a position to tell that it was due to Bharat Jodo Yatra as they had hardly campaigned in that state.
Congress party is a failed idea. The poor and downtrodden of this country are standing in solidarity with Prime Minister Narendra Modi. His welfare politics, sensitive approach and the way he has envisioned India’s progress in the next 25 years are inspiring citizens, especially the youth and women.
You recently announced corrected version of history will be taught to students from Basant Panchami, which is a few days away. How is that going to be implemented? Will new history books be introduced and the old ones scrapped right away?
I have been misquoted. Two things. One of the major recommendations of NEP is a new curriculum and a new curriculum leads to a new syllabus and textbooks. By Basant Panchami on January 26 and Pariksha Pe Charcha on January 27, we will publish textbooks for Balvatika 1,2 and 3 beside Class 1 and 2 which is the first cohort of five years, the foundational segment of school education.
In fact, this is for the first time in NEP that we are formalising the preschool aspect in the formal school mechanism. The books have been framed taking into consideration social expectations and global developments to prepare our students for the 21st century.
Coming to history, our understanding is that in the post-Independence period, a lot of things have not been reflected in the national historical discourse. Who knows about the sacrifices of Baji Rout, Veer Surendra Sai, Laxman Naik and Alluri Sitarama Raju in the national sphere? There was a deliberate attempt by few people to create a narrow, personality-centric narrative in the post-Independence era.
We are not rewriting history but trying to expand the canvas of history. We don’t want to offend anyone or curtail anything. We want to draw a bigger line of history. The unsung heroic efforts of society have to be brought to the limelight in the 21st century, which is the recommendation of NEP. We want to create global citizens but at the same time, we cannot forget our glorious past.
There was a misrepresentation of my view. The textbooks will be available from the next academic session.
The NEP-2020 has been one of the major reforms brought in by the Modi government. What are the key milestones that NEP has achieved and what are the biggest challenges?
The preparation of textbooks is the first major reform. The NEP has recommended giving emphasis on the mother tongue and local language in schools. School textbooks were traditionally in three languages – English, Hindi, and Urdu. But now, a student of Tamil Nadu will get NCERT books in Tamil, English and Hindi.
Similarly, a student of Odisha in the foundational stage will get to study literacy and numeracy in Odia, English and Hindi. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has said that all languages are national languages. In the foundation stage, there will be no textbooks for preschool grades. Games, singing, drawing, drama, etc. will be the pedagogy for Balvatika. Similarly, in Classes 1 and 2, there will be no textbooks but only workbooks.
All states are implementing the NEP. I do not want to do politics over this issue. Few states are positioning themselves as having issues with NEP. But when I am speaking to my counterparts or the ministry’s senior officials are talking to their counterparts in states, I do not see any issue in any state. I can say that after Independence, this is one of the most consensus, mutually agreed documents of public policy.
The NEP also calls for public investment on education at 6 pc of the GDP. But till date, it has remained just around 3 pc. How is the Centre going to deal with this challenge?
Not exactly NEP, but there is a consensus since the days of the Kothari Commission that there should be 6 pc spending of the GDP on education. Today it is around 4.3 pc and it will increase. Let us also appreciate the fact that with the kind of challenges that we are facing in recent times, this government is giving priority to education, manpower capacity building, knowledge and enlightenment.
Will there be an increase in allocation for the education sector in the Union budget?
I am hopeful. The Prime Minister hasn’t even waited for the budget. After last year’s budget, he has allocated Rs 40,000 crores through the PM Shri scheme to the ministry which is beyond the budgetary allocation. So, I do not see any challenge in the budget. In fact after a long period, last year we crossed Rs 1 lakh crore spending in the budgetary allocation.
According to UGC statistics, only 20.4 pc colleges in India have NAAC accreditation. How does the Ministry of Education plan to improve the quality of institutions?
Yes, there are issues. But we cannot say colleges not coming to NAAC are of poor quality. Every educational institute in the country is not coming for the accreditation process and some high-ranking institutes are undermining the process.
Some institutions are not aware of it. But, there is an emerging trend in the country with many institutions wanting to join accreditation. We cannot judge every institution on a single parameter. There are issues as in, we cannot compare an IIT with a general university and the parameter of accreditation of an autonomous college cannot be compared with a full-fledged university.
The government of India is very clear about the necessity of accreditation. NEP has recommended bifurcation wherein there will be a Higher Education Commission of India. There will be four autonomous verticals which will be in charge of regulations, standard setting for academia, and accreditation of institutions and courses.
With all these processes, there will be a ranking framework in place. There are 1200 universities or university equivalent institutions in India besides 50,000 colleges, and all have to gradually come to the accreditation and ranking processes. That way, there will be more competition.
When is the Higher Education Commission of India taking shape?
The curriculum and higher education council are in a very progressive stage. Very soon, we will go to the Cabinet with the higher education commission architecture. All the consultations are complete at our end. Some few final consultations are there. Very soon we will go to Cabinet and then to the Parliament.
The UGC recently drafted rules to allow foreign universities to establish campuses in India. With NEP, can we hope that poor students can also get a scope in terms of reservation/scholarship/fellowship to study in such universities?
Today, the gross enrollment ratio in higher education is 27 pc and in the next few years, we have targeted to reach 50 pc. We have to increase the number of students, the quality of education, and employability, align education with global trends and create more entrepreneurs. The challenge is how we do that.
The answer is through best practices, more research and more quality education.
According to my guess, as of today, India’s education spending in America, entire Europe and Australia will be more than Rs 25 billion. The students count is 10 lakh, and across the higher education vertical, the number of students is four crores. So of 40 million students, only 1 million are going outside.
Foreign universities are not the only answer and we expect a lot more good Indian institutes should also come up. Collaboration has to be there. We have to be a developed economy. The state has a role to take care of the poorest of the poor. I totally agree with that. We have to create a framework of all kinds. Our interest is how the poorest of the poor students will get affordable/free/quality education.
Given that we have huge vacancies in higher educational institutions, there is no scope for getting good talents because they don’t have PhDs. What is your view?
When I took charge, there were a substantial number of vacancies in Central institutions that I am in charge of. Today (on Friday), we completed the third phase of Rozgar Mela. Now, the government of India is filling up all the vacancies in a mission mode. In higher education, we found one constraint and UGC has removed that. For the post of assistant professor, there is no precondition of PhD now.
Because, we thought if we do not give entry to quality professionals at an early age, we are compromising with quality. UGC, the apex body of universities, has done this. Now, all the higher educational institutions funded by the government of India are implementing it in a war mode. The entire ecosystem of Central institutions are on the job of recruiting people.
As you have rightly pointed out, quality will not wait. So the first thing I did was to remove this PhD norm. Now, states have to adhere to this. Unfortunately, priorities are misplaced for states. Such things make me sad. Because education should not be compromised. States cannot de-prioritise universities or higher education and particularly, a state like Odisha.
Because the only strength of Odias is knowledge. We are all here because we are literate, we have studied in a college and under a quality teacher. I can say proudly that my professor was Madam Usha Deka. She taught me anthropology and also infused confidence in me. That’s the institution and it cannot be de-prioritised. Unfortunately, some states are not giving priority, and Odisha should give more priority to higher education.