M A Baby has taken over as the CPM’s sixth general secretary at a time when the party is going through a deep crisis, facing political and electoral setbacks. Baby has a tough task ahead of him to win back its fast eroding mass base. Just three weeks after he took over, Baby sat down with Team TNIE at CPM’s newly inaugurated office in Thiruvananthapuram for a detailed conversation.
He was candid enough to admit the mistakes on the part of CPM in recognising certain Indian realities, like caste and religion, and also what went wrong in West Bengal and Tripura.
Baby, the cultural face of the party, also elaborated on his immediate tasks, complications involving INDIA bloc, and the threat posed by the BJP.
Excerpts
Wt are your immediate priorities and challenges as the CPM general secretary?
The first priority is implementing decisions of the just concluded party congress. The demise of Comrade Yechury and the stepping down of senior leaders from the politburo are organisational challenges before us. The recent decline of the party’s influence should be addressed seriously. The party also needs to ensure continuity of the LDF government in Kerala. There are challenges, but those challenges should be turned into opportunities.
Successive party congresses have pointed out a decline in the party’s mass base. How do you plan to reclaim the mass base?
Only the CPM has come up with clear political solutions amid the complexities of Indian politics. But it is a flaw on our part that we haven’t been able to make the people aware of that. As a mass revolutionary party, CPM should reach out to the people. The cadre should approach people with humility. The factors that impede such outreach should be identified and corrected. This can address the erosion of the mass base to a great extent.
You have assumed charge when CPM is at its weakest. Why has the party failed to grow in India, other than in a few pockets?
EMS was once asked the same question. He had a one word answer -- ‘caste’. We have to admit that communists were unsuccessful in recognising the complex manner in which caste plays a role in Indian society. In 2000, when it was decided to thoroughly revise the party programme, this discussion on caste came up. But I can confess that the minute observations on caste in the party programme did not become a part of the collective consciousness of the cadre. The party has decided to address social issues such as caste discrimination more actively.
Like caste, hasn’t the CPM also failed to understand the depth of religiosity on the collective Indian psyche?
The assessment that we have failed to fully understand the influence of religion on people is true. The dialectical materialism followed by communists is not part of people’s consciousness. If our concepts are introduced mechanically, it will be seen as a criticism of religion and belief in God. The recent party congress has made it clear that communalism and superstitions should be differentiated from the religious beliefs of the common man. In other words, we can fight communalism and superstitions only by taking believers into confidence.
Can a believer become a true communist?
It is possible. Even Marx and Engels have adopted the view that any person who believes in the struggle for the emancipation of the working class can be a member. The issue has been settled back then.
But can a believer rise as a leader of the party in today’s context?
Imbichi Bava, a great communist leader, was a believer. Cherukad, an ally of EMS and a leader of the cultural movement, was a worshipper of Bhagavathi...
Can we see a general secretary who is a believer?
I have no qualms in admitting my beliefs. I believe in scientific principles. I have a friend who usually remarks ‘By the grace of God’. Due to my influence, he has now started saying ‘By the grace of cosmic law’ (laughs). All religions have evolved as a progressive movement against the injustices of the time. All prophets were in fact, revolutionaries. Muhammad Nabi, Jesus and Gautama Buddha have been revolutionaries. I believe in the teachings of all of them. One of my greatest regrets is not meeting Pope Francis, who led an austere life.
Can you emphatically say that CPM is not against religion and God?
The communists are against religion and God is propaganda. Communists study dialectical materialism as part of their learning. It doesn’t mean that everyone who joins the party must concur with dialectical materialism. In fact, Karl Marx’s statement that religion is the opium of the masses has been misinterpreted.
Recently, CPM cadre have withdrawn from temple committees, paving the way for Sangh parivar forces to establish their hold over such bodies. Wasn’t it a serious lapse on the part of CPM?
Communists used to be closely associated with places of worship. During party discussions, there was criticism that the time that needed to be spent on party work was being spent in places of worship. Our withdrawal from such bodies has enabled the entry of fundamentalists. We have decided to correct that stand. Just like Bhindranwale made the Golden Temple his haven, many local Bhindranwales are taking over places of worship. We need to free such places of worship from criminals and fundamentalists.
Don’t you think there is an ‘over SFI-sation’ of CPM? Barring a few leaders in the state, the rest of them, including you, have come from SFI. Don’t you think there is a need for a ‘de-SFI-sation’?
Most of the founding leaders of our party came from the student movement. Even leaders like Stalin and Fidel Castro were part of the student movement. But if a conscious effort is not made in addressing the limitations of leaders being exclusively from the student movement, it can be a problem. But there have been leaders like Vijoo Krishnan and Ashok Dhawale who came from student backgrounds but have become key leaders of trade unions and farmers’ movements.
How do you assess the prospects of BJP in Kerala?
In the past, we used to feel proud that BJP couldn’t enter this side of the Vindhya mountains. Now, they have a Lok Sabha MP (in Kerala). Earlier, they even had an MLA, although we did manage to wrest the seat from them. BJP has transformed into a decisive force in certain assembly constituencies. Though the Congress is primarily responsible for BJP’s increasing vote share, the saffron party has been poaching other political parties’ vote base too, including that of the Left. Their votes have increased even in booths where most voters are from the minority community.
What are the reasons for BJP’s growth?
Sufficient vigil wasn’t exercised. There was a lackadaisical approach. I perceive the Sangh parivar as a venomous serpent with 10,000 heads... look how they infiltrate every cell of Indian society. It isn’t just another party, it’s a party with fascist tendencies. We need to perceive this with the requisite gravity and build up the defence. Kerala can resist it, but we cannot lower our guard. RSS can operate in unthinkable ways. But whether Opposition parties, including CPM, are adequately equipped to take on the evil tactics of BJP-RSS is a pertinent question. The Congress leadership, neither in Kerala nor at the national level, has such an understanding. In Kerala, the Congress believes it should take on LDF more than BJP.
In this context, how do you look at INDIA bloc?
While forming INDIA bloc, we knew that some of these parties, even when joining hands at the national level, will have to contest against each other in some states. However, while contesting against each other, they should ensure the same doesn’t turn advantageous to BJP. To some extent, such caution is exercised in Kerala. Yet, in places like Nemom and Thrissur, BJP managed to take advantage. Shouldn’t there be an introspection on such lack of vigil? The Congress and UDF approach of always training guns on LDF, sometimes even with BJP support, too contributes to the saffron party finding a foothold in Kerala. If there are any lapses on the part of the Left, we are ready to examine the same.
There were reports that, post LS election, CPM is not keen on INDIA bloc. What’s the current position?
CPM is of the view that the party should play a role in bringing together all possible political forces to unseat the ruling party from power. Sitaram (Yechury) played a key role in forming the INDIA bloc. Though this platform helped stop BJP from winning a majority on its own, the aim to unseat it from power is yet to be achieved. Hence, INDIA bloc should continue. The last party congress took a position in favour of CPM continuing in INDIA bloc. Having said that, it’s a fact that post LS elections, the INDIA bloc has been inactive. I have held talks with leaders of other parties, including Kharge and Stalin. Such interventions will continue. The party congress has acknowledged the relevance of INDIA bloc. In tune with that, CPM will follow an electoral-tactical line.
BJP has been indulging in a Christian outreach programme to widen its influence...
To increase its influence in each place, BJP stoops to unethical means. That happened in Thrissur too. Those who surrendered before such unethical optics should introspect.
You are the first CPM general secretary from the Christian community. Till recently, the Christian community was a dedicated vote base for the Congress. Of late, there has been a change. How do you look at this changing scenario?
The Communist Party has always maintained good relations with various Christian denominations. During the Vimochana Samaram (liberation struggle), the Church took a strong stand against us. But later, they too started associating with the party. Because of consistent activities and discussions, an atmosphere of cooperation and camaraderie has been created. They have realised that there’s scope for communication and cooperation with the communists. We have warm relations with both Catholic and non-Catholic Church denominations. I don’t think just because someone named Mariam Alexander Baby has come to a party position, there will be any dramatic change. Neither will the relation become firmer nor will there be any remnants of past differences. I believe we should be receptive to all spiritual leaders.
What about the Left joining hands with religion-based parties?
As far as communist parties are concerned, tactical decisions on joining hands with different outfits are taken, according to the prevailing situation. Marx has pointed out how communists can take support of the bourgeoisie to take on a most regressive force. Such temporary understandings and compromises are part of a tactical understanding. It’s a dialectical approach.
The palm-chopping case involving Professor T J Joseph was the most controversial episode during your tenure as education minister. Your remark against Joseph in the assembly triggered a major row. Why did you make such a statement?
The attempt was to stop fundamentalists from cashing in on the same. I said, “This teacher prepared the question without due diligence.” Using the name ‘Mohammed’ had given a chance for it to be wrongly misinterpreted as something related to the Prophet. The teacher might have prepared it in all innocence. But just because it was an innocent mistake, could it be justified? My remark was made in that context. There’s a misunderstanding that my remark led to palm-chopping. That’s wrong. Palm-chopping happened later.
Was your remark against Professor Joseph intended to pacify someone?
I was just airing my concern that due diligence wasn’t exercised. It was intended to neither hurt nor appease anyone.
You had earlier mentioned about the failures in Tripura and West Bengal. What lessons have Kerala CPM learnt from those failures?
Not just from Tripura and West Bengal, we have learnt lessons from the Soviet Union’s collapse. We’ve realised that being in power not only presents opportunities but has its flipsides too. The first and foremost challenge is to provide people the kind of service they expect. In Tripura, it was an under-handed attack. But the question why the party failed to anticipate such a move remains. This is a lesson that the party should remain vigilant to any kind of attack.
The same can now be seen in Kerala too. In Bengal, a rainbow alliance was formed against the party. There were Singur-like issues too. A lack of vigil in the process of land acquisition too played a role in antagonising people. The role played by TMC and RSS... CPM failed to foresee its devastating impact. The party also failed to wholly comprehend the change in mass sentiments, and therefore, couldn’t ensure proper course correction.
Has the party finally realised its errors at Singur and Nandigram?
What we have realised is that people should be taken into confidence while implementing development projects. The LDF government implements development projects by taking into account the lessons learnt from Bengal.
There’s constant criticism that Kerala CPM has been under the shadow of one leader, Pinarayi Vijayan...
The only way to address this concern is to let the media have access to discussions in party forums (smiles). Only then will you realise whether decisions taken by just one leader are accepted. I remember an instance when a name backed by seven leaders including EMS and E K Nayanar was turned down after the majority voted against it. There are umpteen such instances. There are instances where Pinarayi Vijayan and a majority in the party think on the same lines.
There are instances on the contrary too. The party takes decisions after independent and detailed discussions at different levels. I’d say the narrative that only Pinarayi Vijayan takes a call on all party decisions is part of a deliberate attempt to portray him in a bad light. Recently, there were some reports over the AKG Centre inauguration too. When EMS was the general secretary, it was B T Ranadive who laid the foundation stone for the AKG Bhavan. Such campaigns against Pinarayi are solely aimed at weakening CPM and LDF.
During the time of factional feuds in Kerala CPM, your name figured among those in the camp rivalling Pinarayi. Is that the reason why you were often sidelined, despite making it to the central committee well before Pinarayi?
We have been colleagues in the party for a long time. The party takes decisions on inducting leaders into different committees, in line with its requirements and based on discussions at different levels. Pinarayi took over as party secretary while serving as a minister. Don’t forget that there was a KPCC president who chose to step down to become a minister. The CPM approach is different. Pinarayi chose to quit from the cabinet role to take over a party responsibility.
Naturally, he became part of the central committee and politburo. Contrary to media perceptions, the party has an organic way of bringing in leaders to take on different responsibilities. These are collective decisions. There’s no question of sidelining anyone. The party has its own political and organisational logic behind each decision. As far as I am concerned, I have never felt I was sidestepped or ignored for a deserving position. On the contrary, many responsibilities bestowed on me have been much more than what I deserved. I was chosen despite there being numerous other deserving leaders.
There’s a narrative that LDF will get a third term. However, there are concerns among puritan leftists that it would be disastrous for the party…
The party and the LDF will ensure that there won’t be any deviations or lapses once the Left gets a third term. By now, we have examples showing what could happen if we don’t exercise such vigil. The new government will function keeping those lessons in mind. That’s all I have to say to those who raise ‘well-intentioned’ concerns (smiles).
Some fear Kerala CPM could suffer the fate of its Bengal counterpart...
Let me assure them, it won’t happen. Having said that, certain changes are now visible in Bengal. It may take some time to convert these into electoral victory. SFI has again started winning in universities. The new generation is in favour of the party. I won’t say miracles will happen overnight. But if we wait patiently, admit our mistakes to the masses, there are chances.
You said the party needs to adapt to changing times. Isn’t it time to shed its puritanical approach that bans party cadre from drinking?
In India, the approach towards alcohol is linked to morality. In a way, it’s part of the Gandhian thought. I believe it’s better if it stays that way.
Recently, actor Prithviraj mentioned how you helped in getting clearance to go to Russia for Empuraan’s shooting…
They wanted Russian visas without delay. I just helped them speed up the process by calling some people I know. After he mentioned that, now people are under the impression they can come to me with visa applications (laughs).
You are CPM’s cultural face too. You started working with Swaralaya when the party was more conservative…
A classical concert by Alathoor Brothers was part of the Palakkad Party Congress in 1956. The Communist Party has such a tradition. Somewhere, that connection was cut off to some extent. Now, efforts are being made to revive the same. There’s a space for the promotion of classical art and culture. The party has decided to make more focused interventions in the cultural sector. Vigil should also be there against communal interventions in the cultural sphere.
You are a food lover too...
Who doesn’t like good food (laughs)! I like traditional sadya the most.
TNIE team: Cithara Paul, Sasidharan Nair M K, Anil S, K S Sreejith, Sovi Vidyadharan. B P Deepu (photos), Harikrishna B (video)