Former Union Cabinet Minister and MP and senior BJP leader Subramanian Swamy talks to the New Indian Express Editorial Director Prabhu Chawla on the issue of black money, Ram Setu and his position within the party on Sachchi Baat on News X.
PC: Have I introduced you in the right manner? Have I forgotten to add something, like “Phd” “Harvard”?
SS: (Laughs) You won’t be able to stop…
PC: You joined the Bhartiya Janata Party. But you got nothing.
SS: I hadn't joined the party for any benefits.
PC: The party doesn’t need you.
SS: I am an old Jan Sanghi. I could have made choices even back then. But I was committed to the revival of the Hindus. In 2004, when the Shankaracharya issue happened, Sudarshanji was the Sangh chief. He told me that the factors that kept me away were gone and that I should join the cause.
PC: You joined in 2012 or 2013.
SS: I took the membership in 2013.
PC: But there was a buzz that your name will be included in the cabinet
SS: It’s his wish…
PC: Is the cabinet (formation) below your expectations?
SS: What can I say about it? It’s his responsibility. The onus is on him. He should have the freedom to include the people of his choice.
PC: But there were murmurs about you becoming finance minister.
SS: You must have noticed that I was the only person who never went to the Gujarat Bhawan or even the party (BJP) office in the thick of the procedures. Rest of them were (visiting the Gujarat Bhawan and the party office).
PC: But your name was doing the rounds. Weren't you one of the candidates?
SS: What do I do if my name was doing the rounds? I did not say anything. The hope was there.
PC: But you were not made an offer.
SS: Naturally, my name wasn’t there. Why would the offer be made?
PC: It has definitely hurt you.
SS: I am not hurt. It’s not the first time something like this happened. You are aware how many times this has happened before. It hasn’t affected my politics. In 1977, my name was the most prominent in the Emergency struggle. But Atal Bihari Vajpayee did not let me get an opportunity.
PC: Who didn’t he let you become (a minister this time)?
SS: I don’t know.
PC: You have been taking Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s name since long. What is the Sachchi Baat?
SS: The Sachchi Baat is that I am not aware.
PC: Modi didn't offer anything. You didn't ask for anything.
SS: Yes. That’s right.
PC: This time the BJP got 282 seats. Is the cabinet below people’s expectations? What is your opinion?
SS: Time will tell. I believe that it’s the PM’s right to decide on the cabinet.
PC: True. The PM has the right. But you merged with the BJP…
SS: ….Not with (those) expectations.
PC: Are you regretting it?
SS: Sudarshanji wished that the Hindu forces should unite.
PC: But the merger happened later.
SS: But the beginning happened then. However, he was there when I became the NDA member.
PC: It has been three weeks since the formation of the new government. Are you satisfied with their performance?
SS: How can someone be happy or unhappy in three weeks of performance? They should be given more time.
PC: But the foundation is laid in this initial period -- of three weeks.
SS: I don’t think anything wrong has happened. However, there are few aspects where we can be more careful, like the affidavit concerning VK Singh (BJP government’s affidavit in the Supreme Court on Army Chief Dalbir Singh Suhag’s promotion). That shouldn't have been filed.
PC: Shouldn't the government have given a statement in General Suhag’s favour?
SS: They can. But there’s no need to put VK Singh down.
PC: If their inquiry says that VK Singh has done something wrong, what’s the harm in saying so?
SS: So say that ….we don’t accept the…. they should say that they don’t agree with the core meaning of the inquiry.. They said it’s “intentional”, “mala fide”, artificial, this, that… all this is written…
PC: The Defence Ministry wrote what it felt.
SS: How can the Defence Ministry feel when he is the Minister?
PC: Can truth be changed if he (VK Singh) is the Minister?
SS: It seems that you are forgetting our tradition. Our tradition says that the truth should be spoken in an acceptable and sweet manner.
PC: Hide the truth…
SS: No. Don’t tell lies. There are ways to put across the truth.
PC: So you feel that the Defence Ministry affidavit shouldn’t have been filed in that language.
SS: When a person like VK Singh is the minister and when he has become victorious with such a huge margin and when there’s a general perception that he is not at all a vicious man.
PC: And when he has done something wrong…
SS: What wrong has he done? He has only expressed his opinion.
PC: I am talking about the affidavit.
SS: Even I am talking about the affidavit. You drifted to the wrong subject. I am saying that the language used in filing the affidavit was below dignity, demeaning.
PC: The political leadership must have approved it…
SS: That wouldn’t have happened…
PC: It was filed on June 4. It was under your government and your Defence Minister.
SS: It was. But Arun Jaitley has ordered an inquiry. It means he wasn't aware.
PC: So was the affidavit filed without the Defence Minister…
SS: You don’t know about it. Babus file the affidavits. Do you remember an affidavit was filed during the Congress rule saying that Lord Ram is a myth? The minister said that he was not aware.
PC: But you did not get it checked. There was no inquiry.
SS: It was returned.
PC: The minster said that he was not consulted. Did you get it checked whether the minister was consulted or not?
SS: Why should I ask?
PC: Your government is a strong one.
SS: When a minister calls for an inquiry, I believe that he wasn’t aware.
PC: Your government is as weak as the Manmohan Singh government. They file without consulting you.
SS: No. The affidavit was ready. Babus have a habit of…
PC: But they say they won’t even amend it.
SS: I believe saying that is wrong.
PC: But the affidavit should be amended.
SS: They must (amend it). It must return, they should make it perfect and file it.
PC: What would you do if they don’t amend it?
SS: What can I do?
PC: You would sit quietly. Like you are sitting quietly now.
SS: I will stay quiet where it’s required. It’s not a big issue. I will speak where it’s required. It has been spoken about someone else. I defended it. It’s the collective responsibility of the PM and ….
PC: You have been fighting on the issue of black money. You filed affidavits. But nobody talks about black money.
SS: Wait for some more days.
PC: We waited for 25 years.
SS: From three weeks don’t jump over to 25 years. A baby is born in nine months.
PC: If a dam’s height can eight can be increased in a day’s time under an administrative order..
SS: That’s a developmental issue. A Committee has been constituted on black money.
PC: Supreme Court said it has been made.
SS: The Supreme Court said that and the Congress denied it. Contempt petition was about to happen. The government changed. We made it.
PC: You followed the Supreme Court order.
SS: Right. The committee should be given more freedom and time.
PC: You said that the names should be declared. The French government gave 700-800 names. The German government gave names. The previous government hid all the names.
SS: I say on record that the names should be declared. And the eight undisclosed names should also be disclosed. The Germans gave 26 names, out of those 18 have been disclosed.
PC: Why doesn’t your government declare those names?
SS: The names should be declared.
PC: They must have been given you donations. They are the donors of your party.
SS: I can take one accusation at a time. You fire accusations like a machine gun (laughs).
PC: I am talking about your issues. I am talking about issues you have raised.
SS: I have been part of a government and I know that the committee should be given more time.
PC: You believe in Guerilla Warfare. There are attacks from within and outside the government.
SS: There should be a favourable time for that.
PC: The names are with you. Why do you need the time to declare those names? We have got an honest Prime Minister.
SS: That’s why I am saying that we should be given time. You have a fearless and honest PM. He hasn’t declared the names. There could be a reason behind it.
PC: Our Finance Minister is honest. He has a good image.
SS: See. I can only comment on the person I know.
PC: You know both.
SS: I know both to some extent. I know one more than the other. I know you well.
PC: But I am not a minister. Would you declare the names had you been the minister?
SS: I would do that on day one. I have a different disposition. If others were like me….
PC: What’s the reason? Those people must be your donors.
SS: That’s your accusation.
PC: I am putting up a question. You are afraid of doing Sachchi Baat today.
SS: This is another accusation.
PC: It’s a question. You are afraid of taking questions today. Are you afraid?
SS: I am fearless. And you know it.
PC: I do. But are you afraid.
SS: See. There is “dignity”. I am not an akhbaar waala (newspaper man) who says anything without accountability.
PC: But you say anything when it comes to your mission and principles.
SS: I look for the right time.
PC: Is it not the right time yet?
SS: No.
PC: How much more time would you give this government? You demanded renaming a few cities.
SS: I asked for the renaming of Ahmedabad.
PC: The government is not taking an action…
SS: There are three reasons for our victory. The first is governance. The issue of development made Modi’s image more powerful. Then, the issue of corruption… we exposed their corrupt practices. We inculcated a feeling of trust and belief… that we can send corrupt people to jail, that if the government has the right, we would send everyone corrupt to jail. Then, the workers of the Jan Sangh were dreaming of bringing a Hindu cultural revolution. We have to identify the priorities.
PC: The cleaning of the Ganges is now being taken care of. There is a Minister for that. But why is no one talking about the rest?
SS: Many people feel that first the issue of development and inflation should be taken care of.
PC: You are an economist. You know how inflation can be contained. The oil prices have gone up.
SS: It can be achieved despite that. In the 1990 and 1996 I was in power. I was the one who had given PV Narasimha Rao the documents. The growth rates across the world were low and we achieved eight per cent increase in the growth rate.
PC: You said that inflation should come first and then Hindu cultural revolution.
SS: I haven’t said that. You are an expert at putting words into my mouth.
PC: But your priority is inflation.
SS: I said that the government would think that it should be a priority. It’s the time for the Budget and, that the economy is of importance and the rest should be taken as second priority.
PC: Your PM gave a lot of speeches against Pakistan during the election time. And then he called the Pakistani PM to shake hands. Then they started showering bullets at the Border. Is your priority to get international recognition first and talk about the nation later?
SS: There is a difference in my understanding of Pakistan and the understanding in the documents prepared in the external affairs ministry. I think Pakistan has not one but four governments --- a civilian government, then the ISI, the military and the Taliban. Three are on one side. The civilian government runs on their whims. Talking to them is a futile exercise. The rest don’t listen. Diplomats of all nations and the people of America say that you must keep trying.
PC: But people in your government are in the favour of a soft policy when it comes to foreign policy.
SS: They would have to change this habit. The PM would experience that he made an effort and did so much to make the first move but they started firing.
PC: Atalji made decisions. You never felt afraid.
SS: You are a Punjabi so you talk about being afraid and fear. I am a Brahmin. I talk about patience.
PC: But you never talked about patience during Atalji’s time. He was a Brahmin.
SS: At that time I was not in the party. Today, I am in the party. I am a national executive member. I can meet the PM anytime.
PC: But then you haven’t surrendered your personality. Was it appropriate to invite the Pakistani PM?
SS: It was at that time. Other SAARC leaders were invited as well.
PC: Inviting other SAARC leaders was an excuse. He has stabbed you earlier as well. There are violations on the border every day.
SS: We called the Sri Lankan leaders as well and gave him all the respect. The Tamil parties objected to it --- to an extent that Vaiko was arrested. We can’t choose from among the SAARC leaders.
PC: You also raised the issue of conversion. You demanded a law to ban it.
SS: All India.
PC: No one else in your party is talking about it. Why?
SS: You know me since the time I joined the Jan Sangh.
PC: Since 1977.
SS: True. I have been saying the same thing. It’s a matter of principles for me.
PC: But you are in the party. You have been in the party for 20 odd years.
SS: I have rejoined it. I will show my true colours after I settle down.
PC: But you feel that the conversion law should be passed.
SS: Definitely. It should be passed. Mahatma Gandhi had said that he would do it on day one.
PC: There’s the issue of banning NGOs. Should they be banned?
SS: Completely. They all are anti-national people. There should be a complete ban on foreign money for two years.
PC: No NGO should be allowed.
SS: No NGO should be allowed.
PC: But there are NGOs supporting the Sangh.
SS: It’s alright. They can bear it for two years. Even the Sangh will, the nation’s well-being. I was thoroughly criticised when I was the lone voice on Koodankulam.
PC: It was not the New Indian Express.
SS: That’s alright. Pick up the newspapers. I was the first one to say that the Koodankulam agitation is done by the western powers and Christian organisations.
PC: You had also raised the issue of giving the Pakistani Hindus in India citizenship.
SS: Yes. They have the right.
PC: But what have you done about it. What have you said in the letter, written to PM, which is still a secret one, on this issue?
SS: If I reveal the contents of the letter here…
PC: You will be thrown out of the Party….
SS: No one has the guts to throw me out of the party. I am not doing anything of that sort. I am improving the Party. I have contributed a lot to the party. All the anti-corruption campaign…. the well being of the Party…
PC: You have given the Party the economic agenda, cultural agenda, political agenda, foreign policy.. you spoke on the Ram Setu issue..
SS: So many people have been in Hindustan who did not get what they deserve. Did Subhash Chandra Bose get what he had deserved? We work for God. You are diminishing us by saying that we work for the party. We must all work collectively.
PC: You talked about the Ram Setu. Then there was the issue of Ganga. You have stopped talking about the Ram Setu.
SS: Gadkari has told me that the PM has given his nod. It (the project) has to be scrapped. There would be a meeting held on how to legally scrap it.
PC: You will have to send the matter to the Supreme Court.
SS: No.
PC: Will it be an administrative order?
SS: Absolutely. As far as the Ram Setu is concerned, there is my stay. Hence, there won’t be a problem. The project has to be scrapped. The Supreme Court will be informed. And it (the Ram Setu) has to be declared national heritage.
PC: You said that you will wait. Have you given yourself a time limit on that? How long will you wait and tolerate this non action on the agenda by this government. You had talked about nine months.
SS: I had said that no matter how hard you try, a baby takes nine months to be born. There is a time limit. But I won’t tell you.
PC: So you will wait…
SS: Even a fruit takes three months to ripen. An elephant takes 18 months to be born.
PC: Ok. Eighteen months. Do you have the patience? You coined the term “Tax Terrorism”. What does it mean? You are China’s friend and there is maximum tax there.
SS: I am China’s friend. I am Israel’s friend. I am America’s friend. I am friends with all the nations who are the consistent enemies.
PC: You said remove tax from petrol.
SS: Yes. Second, abolish income tax. Then people will find the energy.
PC: So your agenda is the same as Baba Ramdev’s.
SS: I don’t know who has taken from whom.
PC: You are an economist. He is not. I guess it’s your idea. You both walk together.
SS: I said that as far as gathering resources is concerned, there are other options --- like the coal auction, the spectrum auction, and the money stashed in foreign banks. Once all that is in, you don’t need anything else.
PC: But will the money from the foreign banks come?
SS: It can come any day.
PC: Any day. You will receive a signed cheque.
SS: I am telling you a way out. Come out with an ordinance that all the money stashed in the foreign banks is nationalised.
PC: Who will agree to that?
SS: There was a UN resolution in 2005.
PC: They removed you from Harvard. Now it’s your government and all the Americans are coming to India to express their reverence. Is anyone asking you to return?
SS: I won’t disrespect them. But they have definitely realised that what they did was wrong.
PC: If they call you, will you go back to teach them?
SS: No. I can’t now…
PC: Now you have to teach Modi economics.
SS: I may teach the Indian journalists some economics.
PC: Let’s see how long you wait. Let’s wait for your patience to run out.
SS: Definitely. People said that I will be angry when I was not given a poll ticket from Delhi. I didn't get instigated.
PC: You weren't given a ticket. You haven’t been made a minister. You have been bearing it quietly.
SS: That’s your psychoanalysis. But you are not a qualified psychoanalyst. I am completely satisfied that Sonia Gandhi’s government is gone. I am relishing that satisfaction.
PC: Thanks for coming to our studio.