Congress General Secretary Digvijay Singh talks to New Indian Express Editorial Director Prabhu Chawla on Narendra Modi, Congress party, coalition politics and his prospects as a PM candidate on Sachchi Baat on NewsX.
PC: Today you have to say the Sachchi Baat.
DS: I have always said the Sachchi Baat. I am known for saying crisp things.
PC: Yes, you are known for saying crisp things, but not the “Sachchi Baat. Politicians never say the “Sachchi Baat”.
DS: (Laughs) That’s wrong. I have always spoken the truth and have stood by it.
PC: But today you cannot hesitate from speaking the truth. Say the “Sachchi Baat”. Will you contest from Varanasi?
DS: I have always said that I am an ordinary party worker. And I shall follow all the orders given to me.
PC: People say you are afraid of contesting from Varanasi.
DS: You know my political journey. Have I ever been afraid of anything? When I first contested the elections in 1977, it was a Janata Party wave. Everyone in family asked me to not contest the elections, as Congress was going through a bad phase. But I told them that I love taking challenges.
PC: So you will contest in Modi wave…
DS: There is no Modi wave. It has been created by you all.
PC: How can we create a Modi wave? People are deserting your party for him.
DS: People from their party have come to Congress.
PC: How many? Count them for me.
DS: There are many. Karuna Shukla is one.
PC: She came because Atal Bihari Vajpayeeji is not active in politics anymore. Five people left your party in Haryana.
DS: That’s a normal phenomenon. People who have left our party are those who come to politics to fulfil their personal motives. People are attached to the party ideology would never desert it. It applies to people on both sides.
PC: Jagdambika Pal was in the Congress since Sanjay Gandhi’s times.
DS: If there is a Modi wave, why is their party taking candidates from our party on rent? Had there been a Modi wave, even an ordinary party worker could win it for the party.
PC: You may have a point there. But it looks like your party workers don’t have faith in you. They feel that the Congress is a sinking ship. People like Sona Ram have been contesting for 20 years.
DS: Col Sona Ram who could not win an assembly poll has been given a ticket by the BJP. Where are their candidates? Where is the Modi wave? What will be the fate of candidates in Barmer and Jaisalmer?
PC: But Diggy Raja, you have still not said the “Sachchi Baat”. Are you ready to contest against Modi?
DS: Of course. I am ready to contest if I am asked to.
PC: On what basis will you contest against him? He is considered a successful CM. He is known as the Vikaspurush.
DS: I have always said that Gujarat has been a developed state. In 1995, the state was debt-free. Today it is under a debt of 1.4 lakh crore. It has the maximum per capita debt. And Modi says that he would make India debt-free after making Gujarat debt-free. In the UPA regime, the debt servicing ratio has come down. In the NDA regime, the debt servicing ratio had increased.
PC: There are various figures. There are the Planning Commission figures as well. Figures speak the truth. But what is Congress’ credibility in Gujarat? Why hasn’t the party got a chance in the state?
DS: It is due to our weakness and the weakness of people of Gujarat Congress. We have not been able to convince people.
PC: Look at Madhya Pradesh. BJP won a third term.
DS: I weaned myself from Madhya Pradesh politics in 2003 to encourage new leadership in the state.
PC: It means the new leadership has been unsuccessful.
DS: It is evident.
PC: It means the old people should return to MP politics. Old is Gold. You had said 10 years ago that you are retiring. Now you have come out of Vanvaas. But people say that the party is retiring and Digvijay Singh is making a return.
DS: I was sent on Vanvaas in 2004 and again in 2009. When the 2004 results came, no one was ready to admit that a BJP government wouldn’t be formed. No one was ready to admit that “India Shining” was not happening.
PC: But the opinion polls were in their favour.
DS: The opinion polls are still in their favour.
PC: Opinion polls have given you victories.
DS: We have mostly lost in opinion polls.
PC: Wrong. Opinion polls have made you win. Coming to Varanasi, both you and Modi are outsiders.
DS: By declaring Modi its candidate from Varanasi, BJP has sent strong indication of polarization. A seasoned leader like Murli Manohar Joshi had to step out of Varanasi because of Modi. They have done this because BJP has no other suitable candidate for Varanasi. In 2004, Rajesh Mishra had won from Varanasi. In 2009, Ajai Rai, who could be the candidate this year, had got 1.5 lakh votes. Rajesh Mishra had got around 80,000 votes. We do have a vote in Varanasi. Do count Ajay Rai’s vote.
PC: I am talking about Digvijay Singh’s personality here. You were in charge of UPA. You launched Rahul Gandhi with all the enthusiasm. But you lost the assembly polls.
DS: But we won the parliamentary elections.
PC: Yes and you won 20-22 seats. You had weak candidates too. And you came up with defactors like Raj Babbar.
DS: Raj Babbar had joined Congress much before that.
PC: But he had won the by-election.
DS: But he had contested Parliamentary elections too. However he lost. He was made to lose by 10,000-15,000 votes.
PC: He had lost from Samajwadi Party and got a chance from your party.
DS: No. You are forgetting. He fought from Congress. In 2009, from Fatehpur Sikri, Raj Babbar was the Congress candidate. Then from Ferozabad, he won in the by elections as a Congress candidate. He wasn’t a defector.
PC: But he was in Samajwadi Party before that. I have more names of defactors. But one thing is clear. Where ever you go there is a controversy. You were sent as the in charge in Andhra and you caused a divide. There was a fiasco. The party faded there.
DS: The decision was taken much before I landed there.
PC: But you were sent to solve and end the fiasco.
DS: Whatever task is handed over to me, I complete it with honesty, sincerity and hard work.
PC: Reminding you, the other defector is Beni Prasad Verma.
DS: When I went to Andhra, we asked all political parties for their opinion on Telangana. When all political parties said that they want Telangana, what choice did Congress have.
PC: But Congress had announced and never made Telangana.
DS: It would have gone against the promise. We kept the promise.
PC: Home Minister had announced it in the House. And you finished the party there.
DS: We would revive the party. But the party in Telangana… We would form a strong government with our conviction. We are preparing a new leadership in the residuary Andhra Pradesh. Wait for the results.
PC: You are aggressive and you stand by your views. You did it in UP as well. It leads to a perception that your actions harm the party. Like in Andhra. In Uttar Pradesh, the party lost seats in 2012.
DS: In Rahul ji’s leadership we have gone up from 9 seats to 22 seats and from 22 to 29 seats in Assembly polls.
PC: From 22 MPs you should have got more than 100 seats.
DS: Every state I have been to, the percentage has only gone up. It has never decreased. The vote percentage has increased and the number of seats has gone up.
PC: The party with 22 MPs was stuck at 29 MLAs. Wasn’t it your responsibility?
DS: Yes it was my responsibility. Our vote percentage went up by 4.5. And the seats increased.
PC: You are satisfied with the increase in vote percentage. What about the seats?
DS: The seats have increased.
PC: Seven seats only!
DS: That’s alright. Digvijay Singh doesn’t have a magic wand. It’s clear that wherever I have gone, I have increased the Congress vote and haven’t got it down.
PC: You are active on Twitter. And ever since Modi has been on the field, you have become less aggressive. You have become less aggressive against Modi.
DS: It looks like you haven’t been watching me on Twitter.
PC: No, I follow you on Twitter.
DS: Recently, I commented on the “Har Har Modi” slogan.
PC: It was raised by Swaroopanandji first.
DS: It was raised by me first. Why do you say that? Are you not on Twitter?
PC: I am very much on Twitter. I have 2, 70, 000 followers and you are not one of them.
DS: I have around 1.5 followers (laughs). But whenever there is an issue against Modi, I have spoken against it. I have spoken against BJP as well.
PC: But there is a shift in the language you use. There is an MP of yours who said we will hack Modi to pieces.
DS: It’s a very wrong statement to make. I strongly condemn such comments.
PC: But you should withdraw his candidature.
DS: Yes it must be withdrawn.
PC: What is your opinion?
DS: Whether it is Varun Gandhi or Akbaruddin Owaisi or Imraan Masood, strict action must be taken against people who speak the language of violence and give inflammatory speeches.
PC: There are communal elements in your party as well. They cause communal rifts. They polarize. Isn’t that a mistake on your side?
DS: Imraan fought for Congress in 2012 assembly polls. He lost and went to Samajwadi Party with Rashid Masood, and came back to the Congress fold.
PC: It’s the Aayaa Ram Gayaa Ram policy. People are coming and going. Who is ready to join you?
DS: Respected Rahul Gandhiji answered this question well. Who were the allies with NDA and left walked out of it later on?
PC: They joined you later.
DS: JDU, TMC, and BJD were with them.
PC: But people are joining them now.
DS: Who all?
PC: All the Tamil Parties.
DS: They all are small parties. They have no importance.
PC: But they have 4-6 MPs.
DS: That’s a small number. We have RJD this time. There is JMM.
PC: National Conference was with Atal ji.
DS: Their major coalition parties, like JDU have left them. That’s the nature of coalition politics. INLD was with them. Ajit Singh is with us.
PC: Why haven’t any big allies joined you? TMC, DMK left you. Both national parties deserted you. BJP has bigger leaders.
DS: Like?
PC: Like Modi. In terms of popularity.
DS: Which popularity? That of the opinion poll? You people get so influenced with opinion polls, and try very hard to influence others with the opinion polls. We don’t get influenced.
PC: So you feel we are motivated?
DS: You are not. But C Voter was motivated. They revealed in the sting operation that the opinion poll drifts towards the party that pays the money.
PC: They may have, others have not.
DS: They were caught. Others were not.
PC: But Modi is popular, he draws the crowds.
DS: Please ask Sushma Swaraj, Advaniji and MM Joshi ji what she is going through. There is no mention of BJP. It’s only “Modi Sarkar”.
PC: You are quite sympathetic towards Sushma ji.
DS: I have always respected her and would continue to. I have not been very close to Advaiji but Atalji and Advaiji strengthened the Jan Sangh with a lot of hard work. Now Modi has arrived with his power of money. He has bought everyone with the power of money.
PC: But what’s the secret behind the mutual praise and you and Sushmaji endorsing each other for prime ministership? She says you would make a good prime minister. Are you BJP’s candidate?
DS: There is nothing like that. Sushmaji has been the leader of Opposition on Lok Sabha. And in Parliamentary democracy shadow PM is always the leader of opposition. It was her right.
PC: You would also have a plan two. You did not announce a PM candidate.
DS: There is no question of that. We do not declare a PM candidate. We had announced Manmohan Singhji’s name as he was the incumbent. This time he refused.
PC: He refused because he considered it liability.
DS: I disagree.
PC: But you have spoken about dual power center.
DS: This perception of dual power center in the media causes harm.
PC: But I want to know the Sachchi Baat. Do you mean to say that Congress president should be the country’s PM?
DS: I am saying that the perception of dual power center should not exist. If we win majority, and if the public chooses to send us to the Parliament, then our parliamentary party will choose the leader. That person will be answerable and will have the responsibility to lead the government and the AICC president will be responsible for the organization and strength.
PC: It has always been like this. If Rahul Gandhi doesn’t become PM, and someone else is made the PM, the perception will be that there is a PM and there is a power center.
DS: This perception should end.
PC: But you haven’t answered my question. The Congress tradition since Indira Gandhi’s time was about making the party president the PM to end the dual power center controversy.
DS: This perception should not exist.
PC: Normally that should happen. You are avoiding my question. Correct me if I am wrong. In 10 years, it happened as Sonia ji did not become the PM. Isn’t it time that the Congress president becomes the PM to avoid a dummy?
DS: I would like it to happen.
PC: Right now it’s about Manmohan Singh being responsible for bad government and Sonia ji taking the credit for the good ones.
DS:It’s not like that. Sonia ji never interfered in government matters. Only on policy issues..
PC: Her NAC used to do the same thing.
DS: She would only take up policy issues through the NAC. But she did not interfere in issues pertaining to secretaries, cabinet secretaries, CVC and CAG.
PC: But you make Manmohan Singh responsible for all the negativity. You made him sit with the manifesto which was released recently.
DS: But he gave a fitting reply when he said that people used to target him think that he is a weak PM. But he stayed on.
PC: That’s a nice trait. People want to pick faults and look for his weaknesses, but he hold fort, whether people like it or not.
DS: He was determined to stay on. People wanted him, they gave the mandate. He was in the Rajya Sabha.
PC: He was nominated. Had there been a secret ballot in parliament, it would have been clear. He wasn’t elected. He was nominated. It was a formality. It was announced on TV.
DS: He was nominated after it was authorized.
PC: Now you are not calling him for elections. Soniaji is not visible in the campaigns
DS: The campaign has started. He will participate. You are forgetting that he has a good support in the urban areas. It will happen this year too. He will help consolidate vote.
PC: You are projecting Rahul Gandhi. What is the difference between him and Modi. The Congress tradition with posters was about the presence of Rajiv Gandhi, Indira Gandhi. Now it’s only Rahul Gandhi. You don’t say “Rahul Sarkar” because you haven’t declared him PM candidate. Same with Modi. Photographs of Atalji and Advaniji have vanished from his posters.
DS: (Laughs) The name of BJP has vanished from his posters. It’s “Modi Sarkar”.
PC: Even you are not asking people to vote for Congress.
DS: It will happen as we go closer to elections. We fight on ideology, on thoughts. Not on personalities. Modi’s ego will drown BJP.
PC: You are saying it. They say that they will elections because of him.
DS: We will speak Sachchi Baat after May 16.
PC: There is no Congress without the Gandhi parivaar.
DS: Gandhi family has kept Congress bound together. A shall fight as a left of centre, progressive and secular option and party, as a choice of inclusive politics.
PC: Can you imagine a Congress without the Gandhi name?
DS: Gandhi and Nehru are a symbol of unity and integrity of the country and the sacrifice for the country.
PC: Will Congress win without the Gandhi name.
DS: It will on their name.
PC: It won’t win without their name.
DS: It will on their name.
PC: It won’t win without their name.
DS: It will on their name.
PC: You consistently target RSS. It is Modi fighting elections. Not RSS.
DS: It’s the first time RSS and BJP are visibly fighting elections together. They used to not do it openly. RSS’ name would never be associated with internal issues of the BJP. They used to do it quietly. Now the Sangh is no more a cultural body. It is a political body. A political body which is not registered. It doesn’t have a membership. RSS is not registered.
PC: What your agenda? Will you defeat BJP or Modi?
DS: We have to defeat the ideology which polarizes people-- that ideology which doesn’t care about the down-trodden, the Dalits and the adivasis – the ideology which favours industrialists. We have to defeat it.
PC: You have supported industrialists too. Crony capitalism was your making.
DS: To improve India’s economy and industry we give good industrialists the chance and environment to work better. We also inculcate social responsibility. We have got the social responsibility act.
PC: Corporate corruption has surged during your rule.
DS: Was corporate corruption not there during the NDA regime? Is it not there in the US? Every government faces corruption charges, whether it’s US, France, Italy, China, or Japan. But we must bring laws to bring down corruption and punish the culprits. The Lok Pal Bill was passed by us.
PC: It was passed by both together. The High Court has passed a judgment on both parties on acceptance of foreign donations. The judiciary wants an enquiry and is after you.
DS: If you are talking about foreign donations, Kejriwalji must answer we has got all the money from.
PC: You supported him and helped form his government.
DS: That’s not correct. I had asked him 27 questions. He hasn’t answered any.
PC: Why did you let him be the CM? You wanted to keep BJP out.
DS: That’s not true. We had three options. First, to let BJP form the government and support them. Second option was to support AAP. Third was to not let them form the government. We were not ready to even support BJP. Even after AAP got the support from us, they did not run the government, and the CM resorted to dharnas by sleeping on the road side. Why are we to blame? He worked irresponsibly.
PC: But he could gather 332 candidates.
DS: Is looking for candidates a difficult task?
PC: But why didn’t you go for the third option? After all you and BJP voted him out. You should have accepted the order of the Lt Governor.
DS: Jan Lok Pal was not required as the Lokayukt Law was already there. They should have brought amendment within the Lokayukt Law.
PC: They did not even ask for your support. You went as uninvited guests. Today, Kejriwal is your biggest friend.
DS: Political parties have ideological differences. But we all are friends on personal level.
PC: But you agree that you are Rahul Gandhi’s political guru.
DS: Not at all. You are drifting to “Jhoothi Baat “ from “Sachchi Baat”.
PC: You are out of the inner circle.
DS: What inner circle or outer circle? I am not in the core group.
PC: So you give him outside support?
DC: I am an ordinary party worker.
PC: You will contest. What if they ask you to be the PM?
DS: It is hypothetical. If the party asks me to, I will.
PC: But you are a party worker.
DS: If the voters give us the mandate and the opportunity, the party will take the decision.
PC: But neither Congress nor BJP will win a clear mandate. In that case, will Soniaji asks you to be the PM? What if you get the offer from all the secular forces?
DS: I am not in favour of a dual power center. It’s a hypothetical question.
PC: Thanks for coming to the studio.